C. Peter Wagner, one of the founders and leaders of the New Apostolic Reformation, was interviewed on NPR’s Fresh Air program recently. While he partially succeeded in deploying some new vocabulary as damage control after Rachel Tabachnik’s previous interview on the same program provided an expose on the NAR, he also confirmed some of the key points that Tabachnik and others have been trying to bring to light.

Wagner, like many conservatives and evangelicals, is fascinated by sex. He spent several sentences alluding to and trying to imagine exactly how the sun goddess has sex with the Japanese emperor. He did successfully suppress this later and managed to take the focus off of QUILTBAG issues for most of the rest of the interview, but the host did remind him about that a couple times.

In fact, many of the most interesting points in the interview weren’t what Wagner said – because Wagner didn’t come on the program to say anything. He came on the program to not say things. “I didn’t put that in my list.” “I can’t endorse her statement.” Etc.

Many of the most interesting points were when the host correctly stated NAR positions and Wagner confirmed them:

GROSS: … and also that you believe that the figure that is perceived as a goddess in the Shinto religion is actually sent there by the Satan of the Christian faith to delude people? Do I get that right?

WAGNER: That’s our premise.


GROSS: So I want to get back to the idea of dominionism, of – that people in the New Apostolic Reformation see it as a major goal to take dominion over the, quote, “seven mountains,” business, government, media, arts and entertainment, education, family and religion. Now, again, correct me if I’m wrong, because, you know, you are part of this and you can help explain it. So if I make a mistake, you correct me. One of the tools, it’s my understanding, is spiritual mapping.

I think one of the goals of the reformation, as I understand it, is instead of evangelizing one by one by one, one person by one person, to kind of evangelize a whole community, a whole neighborhood or a whole city, and that one of the ways of doing this is to find the demons that are preventing that from happening, expel those demons, and then you have, you know, an area that is ready to receive Christ. Is that kind of an accurate description?

WAGNER: That’s a – yeah. That’s a – I don’t need to correct you.


GROSS: But at the same time, Alice Patterson is one the people who – her mission is to bring the views of the New Apostolic Reformation into government. Correct me if I’m wrong on that.

WAGNER: That’s right. No, you’re right.


GROSS: So in this respect, in terms of making inroads into government, would Rick Perry’s prayer rally from August be considered by people in the New Apostolic Reformation as something of a victory?


Those statements pretty much speak for themselves.